Victor Kagan: "He hana maʻalahi ia? ʻAʻole. Akā hauʻoli »

Nā manaʻo noʻonoʻo: He aha, i kou manaʻo, i hoʻololi i ka psychotherapy Lūkini i hoʻohālikelike ʻia i ka manawa āu i hoʻomaka ai?

Victor Kagan: E ʻōlelo wau ua loli mua nā kānaka. A no ka maikaʻi. ʻOiai ʻo 7-8 mau makahiki i hala aku nei, i kaʻu alakaʻi ʻana i nā pūʻulu noiʻi (kahi i hoʻohālikelike ai nā psychotherapist i nā hihia kikoʻī a me nā ʻano hana), kū i luna koʻu lauoho. Ua nīnau ʻia nā mea kūʻai mai me kā lākou ʻike e pili ana i nā kūlana i ke ʻano o kahi mākaʻi kūloko a kuhikuhi i ka ʻano "pololei" no lākou. ʻAe, nui nā mea ʻē aʻe i hiki ʻole ke hana i ka psychotherapy i hana ʻia i nā manawa āpau.

A i kēia manawa, hana nui ka poʻe i ka "maʻemaʻe", ʻoi aku ka mākaukau, loaʻa iā lākou kā lākou lima lima, e like me kā lākou e ʻōlelo nei, manaʻo me ko lākou mau manamana lima i kā lākou hana, ʻaʻole e nānā hope ʻole i nā puke a me nā kiʻi. Hoʻomaka lākou e hāʻawi iā lākou iho i ka hana. ʻOiai, ʻaʻole paha kēia he kiʻi pahuhopu. No ka mea, ʻaʻole hele ka poʻe hana ʻino i nā hui. ʻAʻohe o lākou manawa e aʻo ai a kānalua, pono lākou e loaʻa kālā, nui lākou iā lākou iho, he aha nā hui ʻē aʻe. Akā mai ka poʻe aʻu e ʻike nei, ʻo ia wale nō ka manaʻo - ʻoluʻolu loa.

A inā mākou e kamaʻilio e pili ana i nā mea kūʻai aku a me ko lākou mau pilikia? Ua loli anei kekahi mea maanei?

U.: I ka hopena o 1980s a hiki i ka 1990s mua, ua noi pinepine ka poʻe me nā hōʻailona hōʻailona maʻemaʻe i ke kōkua: hysterical neurosis, asthenic neurosis, obsessive-compulsive disorder ... I kēia manawa - ʻike wau mai kaʻu hana ponoʻī, mai nā moʻolelo o nā hoahana, ʻo Irvin Yalom ʻōlelo ka like - ua lilo ka neurosis maʻamau i mea maʻamau.

Pehea ʻoe e wehewehe ai?

U.: Manaʻo wau ʻo ka manaʻo he hoʻololi honua i ka nohona, kahi i manaʻo nui ʻia ma Rusia. ʻO ka hui Soviet koʻikoʻi, me he mea lā iaʻu, i kāna ʻōnaehana ponoʻī o nā hōʻailona kelepona. Hiki ke hoʻohālikelike ʻia kēlā ʻano hui me kahi anethill. Ua luhi ka ant, ʻaʻole hiki iā ia ke hana, pono ʻo ia e moe i kahi i ʻole e ʻai ʻia, kiola ʻia e like me ka ballast. Ma mua, i kēia hihia, ʻo ka hōʻailona o ka anthill penei: He maʻi au. He hysterical fit ko'u, he makapo hysterical ko'u, he neurosis ko'u. ʻIke ʻoe, ke hoʻouna aku lākou i ka ʻuala e ʻohi, aloha lākou iaʻu. ʻO ia hoʻi, ma kekahi ʻaoʻao, pono nā mea a pau e mākaukau e hāʻawi i ko lākou ola no ke kaiāulu. Akā ma ka ʻaoʻao ʻē aʻe, ʻo kēia hui pū kekahi i uku i ka poʻe i hōʻeha ʻia. A inā ʻaʻole i loaʻa iā ia ka manawa e haʻalele loa i kona ola, hiki iā lākou ke hoʻouna iā ia i kahi sanatorium - e loaʻa i ka lāʻau lapaʻau.

A i kēia lā, ʻaʻohe o kēlā anethill. Ua loli nā lula. A inā e hoʻouna au i kēlā hōʻailona, ​​​​e nalowale koke wau. He maʻi anei ʻoe? No laila, nou ka hewa, ʻaʻole ʻoe e mālama pono iā ʻoe iho. A ma ka laulā, no ke aha e maʻi ai ke kanaka inā aia nā lāʻau maikaʻi loa? ʻAʻole lawa paha kāu kālā no lākou? No laila, ʻaʻole ʻoe ʻike i ka hana!

Noho mākou i kahi kaiāulu kahi e pau ai ka psychology i ka hopena i nā hanana a ʻoi aku ka nui o ka hoʻoholo ʻana iā lākou a me ke ola ponoʻī. ʻAʻole hiki i kēia ke hoʻololi i ka ʻōlelo i ʻōlelo ʻia e nā neuroses, a loaʻa ka microscope o ka nānā ʻana i ka hoʻonā ʻoi aku ka nui, a haʻalele ka psychotherapy i nā paia o nā keʻena lapaʻau a ulu aʻe ma ke aʻo ʻana i nā kānaka olakino.

A ʻo wai ka mea hiki ke manaʻo ʻia he mau mea kūʻai maʻamau o nā psychotherapists?

U.: Ke kali nei ʻoe i ka pane: "nā wahine luhi o nā ʻoihana waiwai"? ʻAe, ʻoiaʻiʻo, ʻoi aku ka makemake o ka poʻe i loaʻa ke kālā a me ka manawa no kēia e hele i ke kōkua. Akā ma ka laulā, ʻaʻohe mea kūʻai maʻamau. Aia nā kāne a me nā wahine, waiwai a ʻilihune, ʻelemakule a ʻōpio. ʻOiai ʻaʻole makemake ka poʻe kahiko. ʻOiai, ua hoʻopaʻapaʻa nui wau a me koʻu mau hoa hana ʻAmelika e pili ana i ka lōʻihi o ke kanaka e lilo i mea kūʻai aku i kahi psychotherapist. A hiki lākou i ka hopena a hiki i ka manawa e hoʻomaopopo ai ʻo ia i nā ʻakaʻaka. Inā mālama ʻia ka manaʻo hoʻohaʻahaʻa, a laila hiki iā ʻoe ke hana.

Akā me ke ʻano hoʻohaʻahaʻa hiki ke hana ʻia i ka wā ʻōpio ʻino ...

U.: ʻAe, a ʻaʻole ʻoe maopopo i ka paʻakikī o ka hana ʻana me ia poʻe! Akā koʻikoʻi, a laila, ʻoiaʻiʻo, aia nā hōʻailona ma ke ʻano he hōʻailona no ka psychotherapy. E ʻōlelo kākou ua makaʻu wau i nā rana. ʻO kēia kahi e hiki ai ke kōkua i ka behavioral therapy. Akā inā mākou e kamaʻilio e pili ana i ke ʻano, a laila ʻike wau i ʻelua kumu, nā kumu existential no ka huli ʻana i kahi psychotherapist. Ua kākau ʻo Merab Mamardashvili, he kanaka akeakamai aʻu i ʻaiʻē nui ai i ka hoʻomaopopo ʻana i ke kanaka, ʻo ke kanaka ke "hōʻiliʻili iā ia iho". Hele ʻo ia i kahi psychotherapist ke hoʻomaka ʻole kēia kaʻina hana. ʻO nā huaʻōlelo a ke kanaka e wehewehe ai he mea nui ʻole ia, akā manaʻo ʻo ia me he mea lā ua hele ʻo ia mai kona ala. ʻO kēia ke kumu mua.

A ʻo ka lua, ʻo ia wale nō ke kanaka i mua o kona kūlana, ʻaʻohe mea nāna e kamaʻilio. I ka wā mua, ho'āʻo ʻo ia e ʻike iā ia iho, akā ʻaʻole hiki iā ia. Ho'āʻo e kamaʻilio me nā hoaaloha - ʻaʻole hana. Ma muli o ko lākou makemake ponoʻī i nā hoaaloha, ʻaʻole hiki iā lākou ke kūʻokoʻa, hana lākou no lākou iho, ʻaʻohe mea maikaʻi. ʻAʻole maopopo i ka wahine a i ʻole ke kāne, aia nō kā lākou makemake ponoʻī, a ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke haʻi iā lākou i nā mea āpau. Ma keʻano laulā, ʻaʻohe mea e kamaʻilio me - ʻaʻohe mea e kamaʻilio me. A laila, i ka ʻimi ʻana i kahi ʻuhane ola ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke noho hoʻokahi i kou pilikia, hele mai ʻo ia i kahi psychotherapist ...

… hoʻomaka kāna hana me ka hoʻolohe iā ia?

U.: Hoʻomaka ka hana ma nā wahi a pau. Aia kekahi moʻolelo olakino e pili ana iā Marshal Zhukov. I kekahi manawa ua maʻi ʻo ia, a, ʻoiaʻiʻo, ua hoʻouna ʻia ka luminary nui i kona home. Ua hōʻea mai ka mālamalama, akā ʻaʻole makemake ka ilamuku. Ua hoʻouna lākou i ka lua o ka luminary, ʻo ke kolu, ʻo ka hā, ua kipaku ʻo ia i nā mea a pau ... Ua poho nā kānaka a pau, akā pono lākou e mālama ʻia, ʻo Marshal Zhukov ma hope o nā mea a pau. Ua hoʻouna ʻia kekahi polopeka maʻalahi. Uaʻikeʻiaʻo ia, heleʻo Zhukov e hālāwai. Hoʻolei ka polopeka i kona ʻaʻahu i loko o nā lima o ka mākaʻi a hele i loko o ka lumi. A i ka wā i kau ai ʻo Zhukov i kona ʻaʻahu, a komo i hope ona, ʻae ke kauka iā ia: "E noho i lalo!" Ua lilo keia polopeka i kauka ilamuku.

Ke haʻi aku nei au i kēia i ka hoʻomaka maoli ʻana o ka hana me kekahi mea. Lohe ʻia kekahi mea ma ka leo o ka mea kūʻai aku ke kāhea ʻo ia, ʻike ʻia kekahi mea i kona ʻano i kona komo ʻana… ʻO ka mea hana nui o ka psychotherapist ʻo ia ka psychotherapist ponoʻī. ʻO wau ka mea kani. No ke aha mai? No ka mea, ʻo ia kaʻu mea e lohe ai a e pane aku ai. Inā noho au i mua o ka mea maʻi a hoʻomaka e ʻeha koʻu kua, ʻo ia hoʻi, ua hana wau iaʻu iho, me kēia ʻeha. A he mau ala kaʻu e nānā ai, e nīnau ai - ʻeha paha? He hana ola loa ia, ke kino i ke kino, ke kani i ke kani, ka manaʻo i ka manaʻo. He mea ho'āʻo wau, he mea hana au, hana wau me ka ʻōlelo.

Eia kekahi, ke hana nei ʻoe me ka mea maʻi, hiki ʻole ke komo i kahi koho kūpono o nā huaʻōlelo, inā ʻoe e noʻonoʻo ai - ua pau ka lāʻau. Akā, hana wau i kekahi mea. A ma keʻano pilikino, hana pū wau me aʻu iho: Ua wehe wau, pono wau e hāʻawi i ka mea maʻi i kahi pane i aʻo ʻole ʻia: manaʻo mau ka mea maʻi ke hīmeni wau i kahi mele i aʻo maikaʻi ʻia. ʻAʻole, pono wau e hāʻawi pololei i kaʻu pane, akā pono nō hoʻi he therapeutic.

Hiki ke aʻo ʻia kēia mau mea a pau?

U.: Hiki a pono. ʻAʻole ma ke kulanui, ʻoiaʻiʻo. ʻOiai ma ke kulanui hiki iā ʻoe ke aʻo i nā mea ʻē aʻe. Ke hele nei au i nā hoʻokolohua laikini ma ʻAmelika, mahalo wau i ko lākou ala i ka hoʻonaʻauao. ʻO kahi psychotherapist, kahi psychologist kōkua, pono e ʻike nui. Me ka anatomy a me ka physiology, psychopharmacology a me ka maʻi somatic, ʻo nā hōʻailona e like paha me ka psychological ... ʻAe, ma hope o ka loaʻa ʻana o kahi hoʻonaʻauao kula - e aʻo i ka psychotherapy ponoʻī. Eia kekahi, he mea maikaʻi paha ka loaʻa ʻana o kekahi mau makemake no ia hana.

Ke hōʻole nei ʻoe i ka hana me ka mea maʻi i kekahi manawa? A no ke aha ke kumu?

U.: Ia hana. I kekahi manawa ua luhi wale au, i kekahi manawa he mea a'u e lohe ai i kona leo, i kekahi manawa ke ano o ka pilikia. He paʻakikī iaʻu e wehewehe i kēia manaʻo, akā ua aʻo wau e hilinaʻi. Pono wau e hōʻole inā ʻaʻole hiki iaʻu ke lanakila i ka manaʻo loiloi i ke kanaka a i kāna pilikia. Ua ʻike au ma koʻu ʻike inā paha e hoʻomaka wau e hana me kēlā kanaka, ʻaʻole paha mākou e kūleʻa.

E ʻoluʻolu e wehewehe e pili ana i ka "ʻano loiloi". Ma hoʻokahi nīnauele ua ʻōlelo ʻoe inā hele mai ʻo Hitler e ʻike i kahi psychotherapist, hiki i ke kauka ke hōʻole. Akā inā hoʻoholo ʻo ia e hana, a laila pono ʻo ia e kōkua iā ia e hoʻoponopono i kona mau pilikia.

U.: Pololei. A e ʻike i mua o ʻoe ʻaʻole ʻo Hitler ka mea ʻino, akā he kanaka e ʻeha nei i kekahi mea a pono ke kōkua. Ma kēia, ʻokoʻa ka psychotherapy mai nā kamaʻilio ʻē aʻe, hana ia i nā pilina i ʻike ʻole ʻia ma kahi ʻē aʻe. No ke aha i aloha pinepine ai ka mea maʻi i ke kauka? Hiki iā mākou ke kamaʻilio i nā huaʻōlelo he nui e pili ana i ka hoʻololi ʻana, countertransference… Akā ʻo ka mea maʻi e komo wale i kahi pilina ʻaʻole ia i komo i loko, kahi pilina o ke aloha piha. A makemake ʻo ia e mālama iā lākou i kēlā me kēia kumukūʻai. ʻO kēia mau pilina ka mea waiwai loa, ʻo ia ka mea e hiki ai i ka psychotherapist ke lohe i ke kanaka me kāna mau ʻike.

I ka hoʻomaka ʻana o nā makahiki 1990 ma St. Petersburg, ua kāhea kekahi kanaka i ka laina kōkua a ʻōlelo ʻo ia i ka makahiki 15, ua hopu ʻo ia a me kona mau hoa i nā kaikamahine i ke ahiahi a hoʻopaʻa ʻia lākou, a he mea leʻaleʻa loa ia. Akā i kēia manawa, he mau makahiki ma hope mai, ua hoʻomanaʻo ʻo ia i kēia - a ʻaʻole hiki iā ia ke ola me ia. Ua wehewehe maopopo ʻo ia i ka pilikia: "ʻAʻole hiki iaʻu ke ola me ia." He aha ka hana a ke kauka? ʻAʻole kōkua iā ia e pepehi iā ia iho, e hāʻawi iā ia i ka mākaʻi a i ʻole e hoʻouna iā ia e mihi ma nā wahi āpau o ka poʻe i hōʻeha ʻia. ʻO ka hana ke kōkua i ka wehewehe ʻana i kēia ʻike nou iho a noho pū me ia. A pehea e ola ai a me ka mea e hana hou ai - e hoʻoholo ʻo ia nona iho.

ʻO ia hoʻi, ua hoʻopau ʻia ka psychotherapy i kēia hihia mai ka hoʻāʻo ʻana e hoʻomaikaʻi i ke kanaka?

U.: ʻO ka hoʻomaikaʻi ʻana i ke kanaka ʻaʻole ia he hana o ka psychotherapy. A laila e hoʻokiʻekiʻe koke kākou i ka pale o eugenics. Eia kekahi, me nā kūleʻa o kēia manawa i ka ʻenekinia genetic, hiki ke hoʻololi i ʻekolu mau genes ma aneʻi, wehe i ʻehā ma laila ... A ʻo nā mea a pau e lilo i mea maikaʻi loa - maikaʻi loa ʻaʻole hiki iā Orwell ke moeʻuhane. ʻAʻole pili ka psychotherapy i kēlā.

E ʻōlelo wau i kēia: ola kēlā me kēia kanaka i ko lākou ola, me he mea lā e hoʻopili ana i kā lākou ʻano ponoʻī ma ke kāwele. Akā i kekahi manawa e hoʻopaʻa ʻoe i ka nila - akā ʻaʻole e hahai ke kaula: ua kuʻi ʻia, aia kahi puʻupuʻu ma luna. ʻO ka wehe ʻana i kēia kaula kaʻu hana ma ke ʻano he psychotherapist. A he aha ke ʻano o ke ʻano ma laila - ʻaʻole naʻu e hoʻoholo. Hele mai ke kanaka iaʻu i ka wā e hoʻopilikia ai kekahi mea i kona kūʻokoʻa e hōʻiliʻili iā ia iho a lilo iā ia iho. ʻO kaʻu hana ʻo ia ke kōkua iā ia e loaʻa hou kēlā kūʻokoʻa. He hana maʻalahi? ʻAʻole. Akā - hauʻoli.